Bert has opened up with some questions.

I'll give one indirect answer by way of citing Calvin:



What do you think of the following:

"But go rather to the lost sheep." The first rank, as we have said, is assigned to the Jews, because they were the firstborn; or rather, because at that time they alone were acknowledged by God to belong to his family, while others were excluded. He calls them lost sheep, partly that the apostles, moved by compassion, may more readily and with warmer affection run to their assistance, and partly to inform them that there is at present abundant occasion for their labors. At the same time, under the figure of this nation, Christ taught what is the condition of the whole human race. The Jews, who were near to God, and in covenant with him, and therefore were the lawful heirs of eternal life, are nevertheless pronounced to be lost, till they regain salvation through Christ. What then remains for us who are inferior to them in honor? Again, the word sheep is applied even to the reprobate, who, properly speaking, did not belong to the flock of God, because the adoption extended to the whole nation; as those who deserved to be rejected, on account of their treachery, are elsewhere called the children of the kingdom, Matthew 8:12.) In a word, by the term sheep, Christ recommends the Jews to the apostles, that they may dedicate their labors to them, because they could recognize as the flock of God none but those who had been gathered into the fold. Calvin Matt 10:6.

"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost, (Matthew 18:11.) Now as we enjoy this favor, at the present day, in common with the Jews, we learn what our condition is till he appear as our Savior. Calvin Matt 15:24.

“And wept over it.” As there was nothing which Christ more ardently desired than to execute the office which the Father had committed to him, and as he knew that the end of his calling was to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24,) he wished that his coming might bring salvation to all. This was the reason why he was moved with compassion, and wept over the approaching destruction of the city of Jerusalem. For while he reflected that this was the sacred abode which God had chosen, in which the covenant of eternal salvation should dwell-- the sanctuary from which salvation would go forth to the whole world, it was impossible that he should not deeply deplore its ruin. And when he saw the people, who had been adopted to the hope of eternal life, perish miserably through their ingratitude and wickedness, we need not wonder if he could not refrain from tears. Calvin, Luke 19:41.

Simon’s mistake lies only in this: Not considering that Christ came to save what was lost, he rashly concludes that Christ does not distinguish between the worthy and the unworthy. That we may not share in this dislike, let us learn, first, that Christ was given as a Deliverer to miserable and lost men, and to restore them from death to life.
Translator's footnote:
“Que Christ a este donne pour liberateur au genre humain, miserable et perdu;”--that Christ was given as a deliverer to the human race, miserable and lost.” Calvin, Luke 7:36.
[David: in that last, the French version of this work, as this added comment, not in the Latin. The translator is giving us this extra information as a footnote.]

Calvin operates totally in the revealed will.

David

Flynn schreef:Bert has opened up with some questions.

I'll give one indirect answer by way of citing Calvin:



What do you think of the following:

"But go rather to the lost sheep." The first rank, as we have said, is assigned to the Jews, because they were the firstborn; or rather, because at that time they alone were acknowledged by God to belong to his family, while others were excluded. He calls them lost sheep, partly that the apostles, moved by compassion, may more readily and with warmer affection run to their assistance, and partly to inform them that there is at present abundant occasion for their labors. At the same time, under the figure of this nation, Christ taught what is the condition of the whole human race. The Jews, who were near to God, and in covenant with him, and therefore were the lawful heirs of eternal life, are nevertheless pronounced to be lost, till they regain salvation through Christ. What then remains for us who are inferior to them in honor? Again, the word sheep is applied even to the reprobate, who, properly speaking, did not belong to the flock of God, because the adoption extended to the whole nation; as those who deserved to be rejected, on account of their treachery, are elsewhere called the children of the kingdom, Matthew 8:12.) In a word, by the term sheep, Christ recommends the Jews to the apostles, that they may dedicate their labors to them, because they could recognize as the flock of God none but those who had been gathered into the fold. Calvin Matt 10:6.

"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost, (Matthew 18:11.) Now as we enjoy this favor, at the present day, in common with the Jews, we learn what our condition is till he appear as our Savior. Calvin Matt 15:24.

“And wept over it.” As there was nothing which Christ more ardently desired than to execute the office which the Father had committed to him, and as he knew that the end of his calling was to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24,) he wished that his coming might bring salvation to all. This was the reason why he was moved with compassion, and wept over the approaching destruction of the city of Jerusalem. For while he reflected that this was the sacred abode which God had chosen, in which the covenant of eternal salvation should dwell-- the sanctuary from which salvation would go forth to the whole world, it was impossible that he should not deeply deplore its ruin. And when he saw the people, who had been adopted to the hope of eternal life, perish miserably through their ingratitude and wickedness, we need not wonder if he could not refrain from tears. Calvin, Luke 19:41.

Simon’s mistake lies only in this: Not considering that Christ came to save what was lost, he rashly concludes that Christ does not distinguish between the worthy and the unworthy. That we may not share in this dislike, let us learn, first, that Christ was given as a Deliverer to miserable and lost men, and to restore them from death to life.
Translator's footnote:
“Que Christ a este donne pour liberateur au genre humain, miserable et perdu;”--that Christ was given as a deliverer to the human race, miserable and lost.” Calvin, Luke 7:36.
[David: in that last, the French version of this work, as this added comment, not in the Latin. The translator is giving us this extra information as a footnote.]

Calvin operates totally in the revealed will.

David

Exactly, God's revealed will. In other words, his command to repent and believe!

Bert Mulder schreef: Exactly, God's revealed will. In other words, his command to repent and believe!

Hey Bert, I think you are missing Calvin's point: for him it is revealed unto us that Christ came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Yet by "lost sheep" Calvin includes the reprobate.

Thus, Calvin held that Christ came to save the whole house of Israel.

That's the logic of his argument that I am directing your attention too.

Take care,
David

Flynn schreef:

Bert Mulder schreef: Exactly, God's revealed will. In other words, his command to repent and believe!

Hey Bert, I think you are missing Calvin's point: for him it is revealed unto us that Christ came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Yet by "lost sheep" Calvin includes the reprobate.

Thus, Calvin held that Christ came to save the whole house of Israel.

That's the logic of his argument that I am directing your attention too.

Take care,
David

You are saying that Calvin believed in universal redemption.

Bert Mulder schreef: You are saying that Calvin believed in universal redemption.

I am saying here exactly what he himself said.

See his similar comments here:
http://calvinandcalvinism.wordpress.com ... thew-2337/

Let me repost Calvin again:

"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost, (Matthew 18:11.) Now as we enjoy this favor, at the present day, in common with the Jews, we learn what our condition is till he appear as our Savior. Calvin Matt 15:24.

“And wept over it.” As there was nothing which Christ more ardently desired than to execute the office which the Father had committed to him, and as he knew that the end of his calling was to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24,) he wished that his coming might bring salvation to all. This was the reason why he was moved with compassion, and wept over the approaching destruction of the city of Jerusalem. Calvin, Luke 19:41.

Now you see the reference there to Christ weeping. Calvin says on Matt 23:37 that here God in Christ desired to save the people. And by people, clearly Calvin includes the non-elect.

The mission of Christ, as understood by Calvin, is broader than your categories allow, right? So before the subject gets changed, I would encourage you to look at what Calvin says here.

Take care,
David

Calvin is referencing the lost sheep. Note, he is not speaking there of lost goats.

So plainly, Calvin is not preaching universalism.

Do you believe Christs died to save one and everyone?

Bert Mulder schreef:Calvin is referencing the lost sheep. Note, he is not speaking there of lost goats.

So plainly, Calvin is not preaching universalism.

Do you believe Christs died to save one and everyone?

Bert,

I am at a loss now. From what I cited below:

Calvin: Again, the word sheep is applied even to the reprobate, who, properly speaking, did not belong to the flock of God, because the adoption extended to the whole nation...

Calvin: "To the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception

I have made it bold and underlined. Can you address the comments directly?

And note, Calvin held that Christ was promised to all of them.

Thanks,
David

Here is what I mean from Calvin.

He is pretty clear in identifying the mission of Christ:

"If any man hear my words." After having spoken concerning his grace, and exhorted his disciples to steady faith, he now begins to strike the rebellious, though even here he mitigates the severity due to the wickedness of those who deliberately--as it were--reject God; for he delays to pronounce judgment on them, because, on the contrary, he has come for the salvation of all. In the first place, we ought to understand that he does not speak here of all unbelievers without distinction, but of those who, knowingly and willingly, reject the doctrine of the Gospelwhich has been exhibited to them. Why then does Christ not choose to condemn them? It is because he lays aside for a time the office of a judge, and offers salvation to all without reserve, and stretches out his arms to embrace all, that all may be the more encouraged to repent. And yet there is a circumstance of no small moment, by which he points out the aggravation of the crime, if they reject an invitation so kind and gracious, for it is as if he had said, “Lo, I am here to invite all, and, forgetting the character of a judge, I have this as my single object, to persuade all, and to rescue from destruction those who are already twice ruined.” No man, therefore, is condemned on account of having despised the Gospel, except he who, disdaining the lovely message of salvation, has chosen of his own accord to draw down destruction on himself. The word judge, as is evident from the word save, which is contrasted with it, here signifies to condemn. Now this ought to be understood as referring to the office which properly and naturally belongs to Christ; for that unbelievers are not more severely condemned on account of the Gospel is accidental, and does not arise from its nature, as we have said on former occasions. Calvin, John 12:47

"He who rejecteth me." That wicked men may not flatter themselves as if their unbounded disobedience to Christ would pass unpunished, he, adds here a dreadful threatening, that though he were to do nothing in this matter, yet his doctrine alone would be sufficient to condemn them, as he says elsewhere, that there would be no need of any other judge than Moses, in whom they boasted, (John 5:45.) The meaning, therefore, is: “Burning with ardent desire to promote your salvation, I do indeed abstain from exercising my right to condemn you, and am entirely employed in saving what is lost; but do not think that you have escaped out of the hands of God; for though I should altogether hold my peace, the word alone, which you have despised, is sufficient to judge you. Calvin, John 12:48.

The object here for Calvin and for John in this passage, is the man who rejects Christ.

David

Thus you are stating here that Calvin held to the amyraldian position of hypothetical universalism?

Bert Mulder schreef:Thus you are stating here that Calvin held to the amyraldian position of hypothetical universalism?

Hey Bert, again you reply with an off-topic remark that does not address the posted material.

Let me post it again. I will space out the lines:

"If any man hear my words." After having spoken concerning his grace, and exhorted his disciples to steady faith, he now begins to

strike the rebellious, though even here he mitigates the

severity due to the wickedness of those who deliberately--as it were--reject God; for he delays to pronounce judgment on them, because, on the contrary,

he has come for the salvation of all.

In the first place, we ought to understand that he does not speak here of all unbelievers without distinction, but of those who, knowingly and willingly, reject the doctrine of the Gospelwhich has been exhibited to them.

Why then does Christ not choose to condemn them? It is because he lays aside for a time the office of a judge, and

offers salvation to all without reserve,

and stretches out his arms to embrace all,

that all may be the more encouraged to repent.

And yet there is a circumstance of no small moment, by which he points out the aggravation of the crime, if they reject an invitation so kind and gracious, for it is as if he had said,

“Lo, I am here to invite all, and, forgetting the character of a judge, I have this as my single object,

to persuade all,

and to rescue from destruction those who are already twice ruined.” No man, therefore, is condemned on account of having despised the Gospel, except he who, disdaining the lovely message of salvation, has chosen of his own accord to draw down destruction on himself. The word judge, as is evident from the word save, which is contrasted with it, here signifies to condemn. Now this ought to be understood as referring to the office which properly and naturally belongs to Christ; for that unbelievers are not more severely condemned on account of the Gospel is accidental, and does not arise from its nature, as we have said on former occasions. Calvin, John 12:47

"He who rejecteth me." That wicked men may not flatter themselves as if their unbounded disobedience to Christ would pass unpunished, he, adds here a dreadful threatening, that though he were to do nothing in this matter, yet his doctrine alone would be sufficient to condemn them, as he says elsewhere, that there would be no need of any other judge than Moses, in whom they boasted, (John 5:45.) The meaning, therefore, is:

“Burning with ardent desire to promote your salvation,

I do indeed abstain from exercising my right to condemn you,

and am entirely employed in saving what is lost; but do not think that you have escaped out of the hands of God; for though I should altogether hold my peace, the word alone, which you have despised, is sufficient to judge you. Calvin, John 12:48.

And from the previous posts:

"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost, (Matthew 18:11.) Now as we enjoy this favor, at the present day, in common with the Jews, we learn what our condition is till he appear as our Savior. Calvin Matt 15:24.

“And wept over it.” As there was nothing which Christ more ardently desired than to execute the office which the Father had committed to him, and as he knew that the end of his calling was to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24,) he wished that his coming might bring salvation to all. This was the reason why he was moved with compassion, and wept over the approaching destruction of the city of Jerusalem. Calvin, Luke 19:41.

When you add into this Calvin's exegesis of John 3:16, Ps 81:13 and 2 Peter 2:1, a very distinct picture regarding Calvin's balanced theology emerges.

2 Peter 2:1John 3:16Psalm 81:13

David

Can you please answer my question, which you continuously avoid:

Thus you are stating here that Calvin held to the amyraldian position of hypothetical universalism?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Bert Mulder schreef:Can you please answer my question, which you continuously avoid:

Thus you are stating here that Calvin held to the amyraldian position of hypothetical universalism?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Whats the relevance of the question? Its just another ad hominem, Bert.

But to answer your question: no. I am not stating that.

David

Ok, thus we have established that Amyraldus was not a calvinist, as Calvin did not teach hypothetical universalism.

Now my previous question:

Calvin is referencing the lost sheep. Note, he is not speaking there of lost goats.

So plainly, Calvin is not preaching universalism.

Do you believe Christs died to save one and everyone?

As to ad hominim, you should know, being the master. However, that is not my intend here.

Bert,

You know its an evasion.

But here is my answer:

David Paraeus

Start there, Bert. If you have problems with Paraeus, thats gonna be interesting.

David

Flynn schreef:Bert,

You know its an evasion.

But here is my answer:

David Paraeus

Start there, Bert. If you have problems with Paraeus, thats gonna be interesting.

David

Speak of evasion. Did I ever ask about Paraeus?

I will ask you, for the third time: 'Do YOU, not Paraeus, but YOU, do you believe that Christ died to save one and everyone?"