Three religious fables by Pastor Don Fortner

-"God loves everyone."
-"The Lord Jesus Christ died to redeem and save all people."
-"The Holy Spirit of God is doing all that he can to save all people."

http://grace-for-today.com/998.htm

THE BLASPHEMIES OF UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT by Pastor Don Fortner

http://grace-for-today.com/888.htm
http://grace-for-today.com/889.htm
http://grace-for-today.com/890.htm

What do you think thoughts ?

mayflower schreef:Three religious fables by Pastor Don Fortner

-"God loves everyone."
-"The Lord Jesus Christ died to redeem and save all people."
-"The Holy Spirit of God is doing all that he can to save all people."

http://grace-for-today.com/998.htm

THE BLASPHEMIES OF UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT by Pastor Don Fortner

http://grace-for-today.com/888.htm
http://grace-for-today.com/889.htm
http://grace-for-today.com/890.htm

What do you think thoughts ?

And these are doctrines of Arminius that are very prevelant in what calls itself church these days. Instead they are of the whore, that is called in Revelation, MYSTERY BABYLON....

The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

So most people are created by God just to burn in hell? Because if God hated these people even before they were born, they have no chance of being saved. I am afraid this preacher tries to put God in his own logical scheme, and by doing so, creating his own image of God.

Even though God hates the sinner, in some miraculous way He also loves him/her, by offering the Gospel and salvataion through Jesus Christ (which is a act of love).

rekcor schreef:

The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

So most people are created by God just to burn in hell? Because if God hated these people even before they were born, they have no chance of being saved. I am afraid this preacher tries to put God in his own logical scheme, and by doing so, creating his own image of God.

First of all, if you write that if God hated these people even before they were born, they have no chance of being saved, than it almost sounds that these reprobated are innocent ?

How do you views these verses were it is written God hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day , Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated ?

rekcor schreef:Even though God hates the sinner, in some miraculous way He also loves him/her, by offering the Gospel and salvataion through Jesus Christ (which is a act of love).

http://www.cprf.co.uk/quotes/hatredreprobate.htm

http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/doesGoddesire.htm

This idea that God earnestly wants to save the reprobate has terrible consequences for our understanding and knowledge of God. Sadly, many embrace the free offer without thinking through its implications concerning the character of the Most High.

A. The Failing God
Just think about it: God’s desire to save the reprobate has failed with millions, nay billions, of people. God earnestly wanted to save billions but they perish. God’s desire to save everybody has failed with the majority of people. God’s ardent wish to save everybody has failed for over 6,000 years. Moreover, if God’s will to save them fails, God Himself fails.

B. The Frustrated God
Not only does God fail, but logically God is also frustrated (to speak as a fool). For to the extent that one’s desires are not carried out, one is frustrated, and the greater the desire, the greater the frustration. If a weak desire is unfulfilled, one is slightly disappointed or frustrated. If God’s ardent, sincere and earnest desire to save billions of reprobate fails, then God would be deeply frustrated, for the 6,000 or so years since the creation.4

C. The Contradictory God
Moreover, according to the free offer, God not only fails, and God not only is frustrated, but God is also contradictory. He passionately wants to save the reprobate, we are told, but He does not elect them; He reprobates them. He really desires to bring them out of spiritual jail, but He does not pay the ransom for them. He sincerely wants to give them the new birth, but He wills that the life-giving Spirit not blow on them. He ardently desires that they grasp the truth of the gospel, without which there can be no salvation, but He hides the truth from them, and this, Jesus says, "is good in [God’s] sight" (Matt. 11:25-26). He really wants to save Pharaoh, yet He raises him up in order that He might destroy him. The free-offer god is a contradictory god.

D. The Lying God
Logically, the free offer not only portrays God as failing, frustrated and contradictory, but it also makes God a liar. For it says that He earnestly wants to save the reprobate, yet He takes absolutely none of the necessary steps to save them. Earlier I mentioned some ten or so elements of salvation—and I could have mentioned others—yet God does not work even one of them! Moreover, there are many people who never even hear the gospel during their lifetime, yet we are told that God sincerely and ardently wanted to save them!

I remind you of the illustration I used above of the man who said that he really wanted to go to church, but he took none of the necessary steps and went to the rugby match instead. Did he really want to go to church? No. His actions falsified his claims. The man who says he earnestly desires to go to church but goes to watch a rugby match is telling lies. Similarly, the god who says that he earnestly desires to save the reprobate but does nothing to effect their salvation and instead reprobates and hardens them is telling lies. To speak more accurately, the people who portray God as sincerely desiring to save the reprobate are lying about God, for His Word reveals that He does not do any of the things necessary to effect this alleged desire.

mayflower schreef:The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

Have you ever read the context of the Jacob and Esau-text?

mayflower schreef:A. The Failing God
Just think about it: God’s desire to save the reprobate has failed with millions, nay billions, of people. God earnestly wanted to save billions but they perish. God’s desire to save everybody has failed with the majority of people. God’s ardent wish to save everybody has failed for over 6,000 years. Moreover, if God’s will to save them fails, God Himself fails.

I do not agree: if God gave people a free will (which is, by definition, respected by the Almighty One), He wouldn't fail if people reject Him.

Not only does God fail, but logically God is also frustrated (to speak as a fool).

Again I do not agree. First of all, 'frustration' is in my opinion not an emotion which shouldn't fit God (you aren't necessarily a fool when frustrated). He isn't less divine or almighty because He can be frustrated. Second, when I read the prophets of the old testament, God often looks 'frustrated' because of his people not obeying His laws.

C. The Contradictory God

This one I agree: to us humans, God may indeed seem contradictory. My solution is to be very careful when talking about eternal matters like the election.

D. The Lying God
Logically, the free offer not only portrays God as failing, frustrated and contradictory, but it also makes God a liar. For it says that He earnestly wants to save the reprobate, yet He takes absolutely none of the necessary steps to save them.

This is not true: He sents prophets (e.g. us, Christians) and gave His Word of life.

mayflower schreef:First of all, if you write that if God hated these people even before they were born, they have no chance of being saved, than it almost sounds that these reprobated are innocent ?

This I really find one the toughest doctrines of Christian Faith:

- It is God Who has made the 'rule' of 'original sin' (erfzonde);
- It is God Who creates new people;
- It is God Who chooses which people are saved;

but

- it is the people who are guilty and responsible!

Unionist schreef:

mayflower schreef:The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

Have you ever read the context of the Jacob and Esau-text?

http://www.prca.org/articles/predestina ... ion_3.html

mayflower schreef:

Unionist schreef:

mayflower schreef:The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

Have you ever read the context of the Jacob and Esau-text?

http://www.prca.org/articles/predestina ... ion_3.html

Please give us a summary of the article, we do not have all day! :mrgreen:

rekcor schreef:

mayflower schreef:

Unionist schreef:

mayflower schreef:The fact is, the Bible plainly tells us that God does not love everyone. Have you never read in his Word where God said, he hates all workers of iniquity and that he is angry with the wicked every day? Did you never read, "Jacob have I loved; but Esau have I hated?"

Have you ever read the context of the Jacob and Esau-text?

http://www.prca.org/articles/predestina ... ion_3.html

Please give us a summary of the article, we do not have all day! :mrgreen:

Would be prudent on your part to have all day. It is about your eternal welfare. But here is a summary for you, from Holy Scripture itself. Take especial note of the highlighted part:

Romans 9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Romans 9
1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Little bit offtopic, but came across this quote:

Fourthly, As the apostle farther declareth, Heb. ii. 14, 15, “Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death,” etc. Than which words nothing can more clearly set forth the entire end of that whole dispensation of the incarnation and offering of Jesus Christ, — even a deliverance of the children whom God gave him from the power of death, hell, and the devil, so bringing them nigh unto God. Nothing at all of 210the purchasing of a possible deliverance for all and every one; nay, all are not those children which God gave him, all are not delivered from death and him that had the power of it: and therefore it was not all for whom he then took flesh and blood.

Once again, slightly offtopic:

In the last two instances in which discussion on the extent of the atonement revived in the Reformed Churches, there was an essential distinction, very commonly overlooked, between the special points upon which the controversies respectively turned. The object of the article on the death of Christ, emitted by the Synod of Dort, was to counteract the tenet that Christ by the atonement only acquired for the Father a plenary right and freedom to institute a new procedure with all men, by which, on condition of their own obedience, they might be saved. The divines of Saumur would not have accepted this tenet as a correct representation of their sentiments. Admitting that, by the purpose of God, and through the death of Christ, the elect are infallibly secured in the enjoyment of salvation, they contended for an antecedent decree, by which God is free to give salvation to all men through Christ, on the condition that they believe on him. Hence their system was termed hypothetic universalism. The vital difference between it and the strict Arminian theory lies in the absolute security asserted in the former for the spiritual recovery of the elect. They agree, however, in attributing some kind of universality to the atonement, and in maintaining that, on a certain condition, within the reach of fulfilment by all men, — obedience generally, according to the Arminians, and faith, according to the divines of Saumur, — all men have access to the benefits of Christ’s death. To impart consistency to the theory of Amyraut, faith must, in some sense, be competent to all men; and he held, accordingly, the doctrine of universal grace: in which respect his theory differs essentially from the doctrine of universal atonement, as embraced by eminent Calvinistic divines, who held the necessity of the special operation of grace in order to the exercise of faith.

mayflower schreef:Three religious fables by Pastor Don Fortner

-"God loves everyone."
-"The Lord Jesus Christ died to redeem and save all people."
-"The Holy Spirit of God is doing all that he can to save all people."

Yeah, luckely we have some crunky judge who saves randomly some people in his endless wisdom and doesn't care about the rest. (Keep dreaming about humans being sinners against their will and a far away "misterious ways"-creature who does what he want.)
That's not the God of the bible. God doesn't love everyone, but loves the world and cares as a father for this world of sinners.
Jesus Christ did enough to save all people.
You actualy can "kill" the work of the Holy Spirit. Thats biblical and I can prove that.

You must be a total enemy of free will to support this concept of some unfatherly god. The bible shows us a way more complex situation. Those 3 statements are following the rules of modern reformed theology, but doesn't tell the whole story of God. If you keep saying/following those 3 statements, you have made your own image of God and thats against the 10 commandments.

Theology of predestination tells us half the truth and half the truth is a full lie. The other part of the story is that God made us a promise that we want to forget in modern reformed theology: Believe in Me and you will be saved. Thats an unconditional promise. No one is excluded. The deeper reason is: Mankind is just seeking for good reasons to keep faithless and continu the road to hell. Reformed theology can be part of this road. Be aware.

Kaw schreef:

mayflower schreef:Three religious fables by Pastor Don Fortner

-"God loves everyone."
-"The Lord Jesus Christ died to redeem and save all people."
-"The Holy Spirit of God is doing all that he can to save all people."

Yeah, luckely we have some crunky judge who saves randomly some people in his endless wisdom and doesn't care about the rest. (Keep dreaming about humans being sinners against their will and a far away "misterious ways"-creature who does what he want.)
That's not the God of the bible. God doesn't love everyone, but loves the world and cares as a father for this world of sinners.
Jesus Christ did enough to save all people.
You actualy can "kill" the work of the Holy Spirit. Thats biblical and I can prove that.

You must be a total enemy of free will to support this concept of some unfatherly god. The bible shows us a way more complex situation. Those 3 statements are following the rules of modern reformed theology, but doesn't tell the whole story of God. If you keep saying/following those 3 statements, you have made your own image of God and thats against the 10 commandments.

Theology of predestination tells us half the truth and half the truth is a full lie. The other part of the story is that God made us a promise that we want to forget in modern reformed theology: Believe in Me and you will be saved. Thats an unconditional promise. No one is excluded. The deeper reason is: Mankind is just seeking for good reasons to keep faithless and continu the road to hell. Reformed theology can be part of this road. Be aware.

Brother Kaw, not sure from your response if you are pro or con.