National Israels future

Alexander CD
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Alexander CD »

Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
Also:
Jer 30:1-9
Joel 3:1-2
Ezek 20:34-44
One thing you don't understand is that there are people out there that explain this spiritually!

why because the bible does that too, what to think of the following passage,


For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


I believe God stands for His promises and give His Israel( spiritually) this better heavenly country!

Thus not this earthly Jerusalem but a city He has prepared!

God has to give men a spiritual eye to see spiritual.

ACD
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refo
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door refo »

Do you tell us the history of Israel (as written in the Old Testament) is not real history? Spiritual tales? Like Jesus told us?

If not, what about the curses mentioned by prophets? Also spiritually? Or are those left for the Jews?
Alexander CD
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Alexander CD »

refo schreef:Do you tell us the history of Israel (as written in the Old Testament) is not real history? Spiritual tales? Like Jesus told us?

If not, what about the curses mentioned by prophets? Also spiritually? Or are those left for the Jews?
What kind of answer would you like, refo?
Fjodor
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Fjodor »

Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
Daartoe zijn de dingen gegeven, dat ze gebruikt worden; maar niet, opdat ze vergaard zouden worden - D. Bonhoeffer
Aad
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Aad »

Alexander CD schreef: ..........
Like a Jew belonged to Gods covenant people in the old dispensation, so a christian belongs to Gods Covenant people in the new dispensation, he is a spiritual Jew.

..........

In Christ ACD
I can follow you until the phrase: ".....he is a spiritual Jew".
Because:
1. this way of speaking confuses the definition of 'a Jew'.
2. Jews in the OT-age were also spiritual: they were commanded to love God with all their hearts, all their strength, and all their soul.
3. In Christ there is no Jew, nor gentile: as I said before, these categories do not applie to the Kingdom of God; what matters is: to be a new creation, after the image of God in Christ Jesus. And this is so because 'the Old' has died, is dead=gone, and the new has been resurrected with Him.

Aad
Aad
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Aad »

Joannah schreef:Israel's future is clear: Joel 3:1,2
Joel 3:
1 “For, behold, in those days,
And in that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations,
And will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will execute judgment on them there for my people,
And for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations.

I'm not sure what future that is:
-is your view chiliastic/milennialism? Judgement on all the nations, Jesus returning, sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, reigning for 1000 years?

What is your response to the following thoughts:
1. Ps 2:2
The kings of this earth
have all joined together
to turn against the Lord
and his chosen one.

2. Acts 4: 24-28
Master, you created heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them. And by the Holy Spirit you spoke to our ancestor David. He was your servant, and you told him to say:
“Why are all the Gentiles
so furious?
Why do people
make foolish plans?
26 The kings of earth
prepare for war,
and the rulers
join together
against the Lord
and his Messiah.”
Here in Jerusalem, Herod and Pontius Pilate got together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel. Then they turned against your holy Servant Jesus, your chosen Messiah. 28 They did what you in your power and wisdom had already decided would happen.

Here Peter interprets Ps 2 as all the nations, Israel and the gentiles together turn against the Lord and His annointed Jesus.

3.
What happened when Jesus was crucified?
"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered to the chief priests, and to the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:...."; Mrc.10:33 (Matth.20:19).
The spiritual leaders of Israel together with the political powers of Israel and Rome (in the persons of Herod Antipas and Pilate) worked together to get rid of the annointed of the LORD.

So it is: Israel and the gentiles against the Lord and His annointed, c.q. for the future this will mean: against God and His Church in Christ Jesus.

Question:
1. Will this be any different in the future? If so, on what ground? Are you aware of the grave antichristian powers within old Israel?
2. The question must also be:
What is the role of the Holy Church, the apple of God's eye, His truly beloved people in His Son Jesus?

Aad
Joannah
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
Well, what does it mean according to you?I see no other option, do you?
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
Joannah
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
They will see Him , the One they pierced, and will weep over Him ...they will all repent, I guess, and confess their sins, after which God will be mercifull over them, like he has been with us..But God's ways are hidden and who am I to even think I know His ways?
Let alone judge over some one else his fate..
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
Alexander CD
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Alexander CD »

Joannah schreef:
Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
They will see Him , the One they pierced, and will weep over Him ...they will all repent, I guess, and confess their sins, after which God will be mercifull over them, like he has been with us..But God's ways are hidden and who am I to even think I know His ways?
Let alone judge over some one else his fate..
Let me give a good explanation of Romans 27

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, and indeed of converted Jews and Gentiles. But as for the election of Israel, these are beloved for the promises made to the fathers. i.e., the promise to the fathers of deliverance would be kept in "this Election." This verse is contrasting the two Israels (Romans 9:6), which are unbelieving Israel (who are enemies of the Church), and election (who are beloved) of God.
There are those who object to "all Israel" in verse 26 pertaining to only the elect, because they surmise that then the elect in this verse would have to be regarded as enemies. They come to this conclusion because they either forget, or ignore the witness of the context, and of the whole Bible in general. God has already informed us that, "All Israel are not Israel." So then, when it says in the proceeding verses that "ALL ISRAEL shall be saved," it must refer only to the Israel of God who are elect. The election of Israel excludes those who are not elect of Israel. Even as the scriptures declared:

"..Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

The election of Israel have obtained that promise, and the rest of Israel were blinded, even as the imagery of the branches of the Olive tree signified.

And in truth, even the staunchest defender of the distinction of Israel will usually not claim that the term "all Israel" means every single person in Israel will be saved. Therefore, despite his protests, that shows that he does recognize that some of Israel are not included in this "all Israel" that shall be saved. Thus he is actually agreeing that it means only some of the nation of Israel shall be saved.

Moreover, when scripture declared, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins," then by definition, and by any normal grammatical structure, this "all Israel" in view will then have their sins washed away.

1st John 3:5-6

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
."
This was the coming of Christ, when He took away Israel's sins. And so indeed, those of Israel who reject this Christ, they become enemies because of the gospel. While concerning those of Israel who are elect, they are beloved because of the promise to the fathers. All Israel is either for Christ, or they are against Him. There is no in between. We are seeing the external covenant Israel, and the election that are part of the eternal covenant Israel.

Concerning the gospel, the nation of Israel is blinded and are enemies for our sakes (the Gentiles). For they are at enmity with Christ, and that enmity was the occasion that brought salvation to the whole Gentiles.
Concerning the Election, these of Israel are beloved as the remnant whom God has brought through the fire and purged them from their sins, fulfilling the promise to their fathers.
Israel persecuted the Church because of the gospel message it brought. They are thus enemies for the Church's sake. Which Paul also confessed he did likewise before his conversion, when he was a blind Israelite.
1st Corinthians 15:9

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
But Paul was part of the election Israel, within external Israel. God is using him gloriously to bring about salvation to the Gentiles, and accomplish His purposes. His salvation as an Israelite is the fulfillment of the promises He made to the fathers. Israel, the beloved, is a type of Christ (Israel) the Beloved of God. He is the Son called out of Egypt, in whom the election would be beloved of God. It is in Christ that Israel becomes the beloved Holy City. You might want to do a study of the word "beloved" in scripture as it is used in this very interesting way. There is no riddle or mystery concerning this verse about Israel, how it is an enemy in one sense, and concerning the election beloved. The answer to this was stated right in verse seven.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
ACD
Joannah
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

Alexander CD schreef:
Joannah schreef:
Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
They will see Him , the One they pierced, and will weep over Him ...they will all repent, I guess, and confess their sins, after which God will be mercifull over them, like he has been with us..But God's ways are hidden and who am I to even think I know His ways?
Let alone judge over some one else his fate..
Let me give a good explanation of Romans 27

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
The unbelieving Jews are enemies of the gospel, and indeed of converted Jews and Gentiles. But as for the election of Israel, these are beloved for the promises made to the fathers. i.e., the promise to the fathers of deliverance would be kept in "this Election." This verse is contrasting the two Israels (Romans 9:6), which are unbelieving Israel (who are enemies of the Church), and election (who are beloved) of God.
There are those who object to "all Israel" in verse 26 pertaining to only the elect, because they surmise that then the elect in this verse would have to be regarded as enemies. They come to this conclusion because they either forget, or ignore the witness of the context, and of the whole Bible in general. God has already informed us that, "All Israel are not Israel." So then, when it says in the proceeding verses that "ALL ISRAEL shall be saved," it must refer only to the Israel of God who are elect. The election of Israel excludes those who are not elect of Israel. Even as the scriptures declared:

"..Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

The election of Israel have obtained that promise, and the rest of Israel were blinded, even as the imagery of the branches of the Olive tree signified.

And in truth, even the staunchest defender of the distinction of Israel will usually not claim that the term "all Israel" means every single person in Israel will be saved. Therefore, despite his protests, that shows that he does recognize that some of Israel are not included in this "all Israel" that shall be saved. Thus he is actually agreeing that it means only some of the nation of Israel shall be saved.

Moreover, when scripture declared, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins," then by definition, and by any normal grammatical structure, this "all Israel" in view will then have their sins washed away.

1st John 3:5-6

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
."
This was the coming of Christ, when He took away Israel's sins. And so indeed, those of Israel who reject this Christ, they become enemies because of the gospel. While concerning those of Israel who are elect, they are beloved because of the promise to the fathers. All Israel is either for Christ, or they are against Him. There is no in between. We are seeing the external covenant Israel, and the election that are part of the eternal covenant Israel.

Concerning the gospel, the nation of Israel is blinded and are enemies for our sakes (the Gentiles). For they are at enmity with Christ, and that enmity was the occasion that brought salvation to the whole Gentiles.
Concerning the Election, these of Israel are beloved as the remnant whom God has brought through the fire and purged them from their sins, fulfilling the promise to their fathers.
Israel persecuted the Church because of the gospel message it brought. They are thus enemies for the Church's sake. Which Paul also confessed he did likewise before his conversion, when he was a blind Israelite.
1st Corinthians 15:9

"For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
But Paul was part of the election Israel, within external Israel. God is using him gloriously to bring about salvation to the Gentiles, and accomplish His purposes. His salvation as an Israelite is the fulfillment of the promises He made to the fathers. Israel, the beloved, is a type of Christ (Israel) the Beloved of God. He is the Son called out of Egypt, in whom the election would be beloved of God. It is in Christ that Israel becomes the beloved Holy City. You might want to do a study of the word "beloved" in scripture as it is used in this very interesting way. There is no riddle or mystery concerning this verse about Israel, how it is an enemy in one sense, and concerning the election beloved. The answer to this was stated right in verse seven.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
ACD
When 1 sentence talks about gentiles and Israel, there is no space anymore to spiritualize one group as having taken the position of the other.
Please try to think outside the limitations of time, Alexander,
the mystery is that He will carry on with His people, once the number of gentiles is full. We only happened to come in between, as they rejected Him, but for a while only.
Christ didn't come for us, but for them!
The fact that they rejected Him, was to our salvation, but this time will come to an end.And He will focus His attention on them again.
Can't you see Israel is THE exception in the world, it is still/again a unique, holy country, Persia and the filistines are still their biggest enemies, the scene is getting ready for the old Testamnet prophesies to come true.
Jerusalem is like a stone that has to be lifted, all who do so, will wound themselves.(or something to that extend)
Once the number of people from all nations has been fullfilled.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
Joannah
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Lid geworden op: 14 okt 2009, 16:01

Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

Joannah schreef:
Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:The answer to that question is written in Rom 11:27 and 28.
And that means that every jew will be saved and that there will be no jews send to hell?
They will see Him , the One they pierced, and will weep over Him ...they will all repent, I guess, and confess their sins, after which God will be mercifull over them, like he has been with us..But God's ways are hidden and who am I to even think I know His ways?
Let alone judge over some one else his fate..
Besides, I hope we see the link between Joseph and Jesus.
Joseph was sold to egypt, like Jesus was sold to the gentiles, they didn't want Him, rejected Him.
But just like Joseph, He will remain hidden, but for a while ONLY!
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Alexander CD »

Joannah schreef:When 1 sentence talks about gentiles and Israel, there is no space anymore to spiritualize one group as having taken the position of the other.
The bible makes it clear that God still sees the people from an old testaments perspective, Israel the people of God the heathens or gentiles the people of the satan ( 1 John 3 vs 10 only two kinds of people).
When God says not all Israel is of Israel it is very clear that God sees one spirtually, right?
We see this again in,

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Joannah schreef:Please try to think outside the limitations of time, Alexander,
the mystery is that He will carry on with His people, once the number of gentiles is full
Is has not to do with time but with Gods election!
Joannah schreef:We only happened to come in between, as they rejected Him, but for a while only.
This is a lie from satan spread bij the dispensationalists, and nowhere supported by Gods word.
Joannah schreef:Christ didn't come for us, but for them!
Thats what the devil allways does try rob Christ away from the believer, through a lie.

If that is true Christ didn't for one Christian out of the gentiles all are lost and dead in there sins.

Then the bible also lies when it speaks

Maar gij zijt een uitverkoren geslacht, een koninklijk priesterdom, een heilig volk, een verkregen volk; opdat gij zoudt verkondigen de deugden Desgenen, Die u uit de duisternis geroepen heeft tot Zijn wonderbaar licht;

Gij, die eertijds geen volk waart, maar nu Gods volk zijt; die eertijds niet ontfermd waart, maar nu ontfermd zijt geworden.

thats why I hate dipensationalism it steals and it robs from the child of God, it also misses all spiritual light of the scriptures.
Joannah
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

If you say that dispensationalists are spreading the devil's lies, I am finished with you.
Jesus did every effort to give the Kingdom to His people, but they didn't want it, even after they killed Him, he still told his disciples to bring the promise to them only, or at least first, before the gentiles.(read the parable of the invited guests to the wedding)
They are the people of the covenant, the prophets, and His Word was written by them only.
We are a different people, called out of the dark, indeed. But we don't replace the jews.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
Alexander CD
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Alexander CD »

Dispensationalism is another doctrine, another Kingdom, another plan of another god. The charity, which is agape love, compels me to testify to these things. No malice, no hatred, simply the truth in love -- in its REAL meaning, not the way it is usually used.


Matthew 16:6

•"Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
As Christ warns, so the witnesses of Christ warns. Beware the leaven of the Dispensationalists. What shall you say then? There is no reason to call the Pharisees doctrines, these brethren of the same congregation as Christ, false? No, they had to be called false. Because they were.

No, I don't "disagree" with Dispensationalism, I reject the leaven outright as "another gospel" of another kingdom, having nothing to do with Christ's testimonies. And as such, this doctrine is unworthy to be called the gospel of Christ, the truth, or be known as the hope of Israel. We call it false doctrine for one simple reason--It is.


Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
Joannah schreef:We are a different people, called out of the dark, indeed. But we don't replace the jews.
the bible knows only two kinds of people the childeren of God and the childeren of satan.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I hate every false way, therefore do I bear witness to the truth that those on that path might see the error of their ways. That per chance God might have mercy that they forsake their false doctrines. ...like Dispensationalism.

Psalms 119:128

•"Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way."
Joannah
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Re: National Israels future

Bericht door Joannah »

Alexander CD schreef:Dispensationalism is another doctrine, another Kingdom, another plan of another god. The charity, which is agape love, compels me to testify to these things. No malice, no hatred, simply the truth in love -- in its REAL meaning, not the way it is usually used.


Matthew 16:6

•"Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
As Christ warns, so the witnesses of Christ warns. Beware the leaven of the Dispensationalists. What shall you say then? There is no reason to call the Pharisees doctrines, these brethren of the same congregation as Christ, false? No, they had to be called false. Because they were.

No, I don't "disagree" with Dispensationalism, I reject the leaven outright as "another gospel" of another kingdom, having nothing to do with Christ's testimonies. And as such, this doctrine is unworthy to be called the gospel of Christ, the truth, or be known as the hope of Israel. We call it false doctrine for one simple reason--It is.


Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
Joannah schreef:We are a different people, called out of the dark, indeed. But we don't replace the jews.
the bible knows only two kinds of people the childeren of God and the childeren of satan.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I hate every false way, therefore do I bear witness to the truth that those on that path might see the error of their ways. That per chance God might have mercy that they forsake their false doctrines. ...like Dispensationalism.

Psalms 119:128

•"Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way."

nicely copied opinion of Tony Warren on www.mountainretreatorg.net ::please
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?
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