Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Joannah
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Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Joannah » 02 Jan 2010, 23:39

It looks like we will not convince each other.
If the sunday would have been the new sabbath, Christ and his apostles would have been teaching on the first day, not the saturday.
If you think the new sabbath is sunday, why do we teach the 4th commandment week after week?
If you study the sabbaths and feasts in lev 23, you will see why it's called a shadow of what had to come.
Jesus became the Pesach-Lamb.
Pesach (nissan14) is always followed by a sabbath, That high sabbath (of John 19:31)times 7 + 1 day gives us the Pentacost. 50 days later.
(the shadow hereof was described in Lev 23:16.)
Sorry, I do not have the energy to defend and explain my reasons any further at this hour.They wouldn't convince you anyway, would they?
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?

Joannah
Berichten: 2544
Lid geworden op: 14 Okt 2009, 16:01

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Joannah » 02 Jan 2010, 23:51

Alexander CD schreef:
Zonderling schreef:The fourth commandment is not ceremonial, but only the day is ceremonial. It has been changed from the zeventh day to the first.
and who has the authority to change what God created in Genesis 2, even before He created man!?While God wrote all about the sabbath in the old testament, would He not have been as clear about changing it, in the New testament?
One thing is for sure, in the future we will have the sabbath (again)! Jesaiah 66:22-23


The fourth commandment is in part ceremonial ( because it points to Christ) and in part moral.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?

Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 Sep 2008, 18:44

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Alexander CD » 03 Jan 2010, 00:01

Joannah schreef:If the sunday would have been the new sabbath, Christ and his apostles would have been teaching on the first day, not the saturday.


The apostles did, it changed from the saturday to the sunday, right at the resurrection.

Joannah schreef:If you think the new sabbath is sunday, why do we teach the 4th commandment week after week?
because the fourth commandment is in part moral too.

and who has the authority to change what God created in Genesis 2, even before He created man!?While God wrote all about the sabbath in the old testament, would He not have been as clear about changing it, in the New testament?
Christ has the authority because He is Lord of the Sabbath,

Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 Sep 2008, 18:44

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Alexander CD » 03 Jan 2010, 00:17

One thing is for sure, in the future we will have the sabbath (again)! Jesaiah 66:22-23

Isaiah 66 is talking about new heaven and earth.
The sabbath is all about rest.
Isaiah 11:10

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
In other words, it is only in Christ, the Root of Jesse, that man will find his rest.
That why the sabbath is so closely related to Christ.
Hebrews 3:11

"So I Sware in My wrath, they shall not enter into my Rest."

It was unbelief that kept them out of the true Sabbath Rest, and that Sabbath in view was Christ. Those old testament people did not become saved wherein they would have (by faith) been in Christ and able) to enter in. It was because of unbelief that man is unable to enter in. Hebrews chapter four is indicative of this.
Hebrews 4:3-4

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, as I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest: although the Works were finished from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
for He spake in a certain place on the SEVENTH day on this wise, And God did Rest the seventh day from all His works.
This is as clear as can be.
The seventh day Sabbath looked forward to Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world that our works are ended. For by Grace we are saved, through the works that Christ has done. He is the fulfillment of that Sabbath of rest.

Joannah
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Lid geworden op: 14 Okt 2009, 16:01

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Joannah » 04 Jan 2010, 21:07

Alexander CD schreef:
Joannah schreef:If the sunday would have been the new sabbath, Christ and his apostles would have been teaching on the first day, not the saturday.


The apostles did, it changed from the saturday to the sunday, right at the resurrection.

Joannah schreef:If you think the new sabbath is sunday, why do we teach the 4th commandment week after week?
because the fourth commandment is in part moral too.

and who has the authority to change what God created in Genesis 2, even before He created man!?While God wrote all about the sabbath in the old testament, would He not have been as clear about changing it, in the New testament?
Christ has the authority because He is Lord of the Sabbath,


It changed at the resurrection???
Acts was written decades(!) after Jesus ascended to Heaven.(ACTS 18:4 being the best example of preaching EVERY saturday, to jews AND gentiles)
At least 20 times in the book Acts we read that the apostel was preaching on sabbath, saturday.The few times they gathered on the first day it is always followed by a reason (like Paul was about to leave for a journey)

The function of the sabbath may have changed!, but NOT the day itself.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?

Fjodor
Berichten: 2970
Lid geworden op: 11 Jun 2009, 23:13

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Fjodor » 04 Jan 2010, 22:00

Joannah schreef:
Alexander CD schreef:
Joannah schreef:If the sunday would have been the new sabbath, Christ and his apostles would have been teaching on the first day, not the saturday.


The apostles did, it changed from the saturday to the sunday, right at the resurrection.

Joannah schreef:If you think the new sabbath is sunday, why do we teach the 4th commandment week after week?
because the fourth commandment is in part moral too.

and who has the authority to change what God created in Genesis 2, even before He created man!?While God wrote all about the sabbath in the old testament, would He not have been as clear about changing it, in the New testament?
Christ has the authority because He is Lord of the Sabbath,


It changed at the resurrection???
Acts was written decades(!) after Jesus ascended to Heaven.(ACTS 18:4 being the best example of preaching EVERY saturday, to jews AND gentiles)
At least 20 times in the book Acts we read that the apostel was preaching on sabbath, saturday.The few times they gathered on the first day it is always followed by a reason (like Paul was about to leave for a journey)

The function of the sabbath may have changed!, but NOT the day itself.


I've no opinion about this problem, but (Alexander and Zonderling) if the resting day is changed from sabbath to sunday, why isn't there a problem in the bible about keeping the sabbath?
When we read Galatians we see that the abolition of circumcision causes a stir in the church, the jews were against it.
Why isn't there such a problem in the case of the sabbath - sunday?

I've heard a video posted by Mayflower about eschatology, wherein a pastor defends a socalled postmillennial view (Jesus returns after the milennium, and the milennium started at 70 AD with the destruction of the temple).
He says that he can't understand why we're resting at sunday when the milennium isn't started yet.

What's your opinion on this?
Daartoe zijn de dingen gegeven, dat ze gebruikt worden; maar niet, opdat ze vergaard zouden worden - D. Bonhoeffer

Zonderling
Berichten: 4330
Lid geworden op: 19 Nov 2005, 13:31

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Zonderling » 04 Jan 2010, 22:07

Joannah schreef:Acts was written decades(!) after Jesus ascended to Heaven.(ACTS 18:4 being the best example of preaching EVERY saturday, to jews AND gentiles)

This was in Athen as long as Jews and gentiles weren't seperated.
In the text you mentioned it is clear Paul was preaching in the Jewish synagoge.

The few times they gathered on the first day it is always followed by a reason (like Paul was about to leave for a journey)

This is no valid reason because never is said on which days Paul traveled.
The only reason the first day of the week is mentioned is the fact that this day was a special day.

Joannah
Berichten: 2544
Lid geworden op: 14 Okt 2009, 16:01

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Joannah » 04 Jan 2010, 22:14

Fjodor schreef:
Joannah schreef:
Alexander CD schreef:
Joannah schreef:If the sunday would have been the new sabbath, Christ and his apostles would have been teaching on the first day, not the saturday.


The apostles did, it changed from the saturday to the sunday, right at the resurrection.

Joannah schreef:If you think the new sabbath is sunday, why do we teach the 4th commandment week after week?
because the fourth commandment is in part moral too.

and who has the authority to change what God created in Genesis 2, even before He created man!?While God wrote all about the sabbath in the old testament, would He not have been as clear about changing it, in the New testament?
Christ has the authority because He is Lord of the Sabbath,


It changed at the resurrection???
Acts was written decades(!) after Jesus ascended to Heaven.(ACTS 18:4 being the best example of preaching EVERY saturday, to jews AND gentiles)
At least 20 times in the book Acts we read that the apostel was preaching on sabbath, saturday.The few times they gathered on the first day it is always followed by a reason (like Paul was about to leave for a journey)

The function of the sabbath may have changed!, but NOT the day itself.


I've no opinion about this problem, but (Alexander and Zonderling) if the resting day is changed from sabbath to sunday, why isn't there a problem in the bible about keeping the sabbath?
When we read Galatians we see that the abolition of circumcision causes a stir in the church, the jews were against it.
Why isn't there such a problem in the case of the sabbath - sunday?

I've heard a video posted by Mayflower about eschatology, wherein a pastor defends a socalled postmillennial view (Jesus returns after the milennium, and the milennium started at 70 AD with the destruction of the temple).
He says that he can't understand why we're resting at sunday when the milennium isn't started yet.

What's your opinion on this?


Jesus Himself didn't even know when he was to return, when the disciples asked Him.
Only the Father knows.
In Galatians , they will answer you, the subject was circumcision, not the sabbath.
But indeed, as you say, a change of a holy law, written by God's fingers in stone, can't just change without even a CLEAR passage in the bible.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?

Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 Sep 2008, 18:44

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Alexander CD » 05 Jan 2010, 00:06

Joannah schreef:In Galatians , they will answer you, the subject was circumcision, not the sabbath.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
You see, Galatians is talking about righteousness by the law, that includes the sabbath keeping.
and the law was the shadow of the Good Thing to come.
Hebrews 10:1-2
"for the LAW having a Shadow of good things to come, and not the
Very Image
of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
If you mis that the law is fullfilled by Christ, you probably will never understand the Gospel.
Christ is the very centre of th whole bible, not the law, not Israël.

Christ had to fullfill the law for us, the complete law, not a part!
So Jesus Christ had to fullfill the fourth commandment for us, so that we had perfectly kept the sabbath, how can we appear before God not having the perfection of Christ?
In his commentary John Calvin begins matthew 28 this way.


.
Now in the evening of the Sabbaths, 298 which began to dawn towards the first of the Sabbaths,


The end of the series of old testaments sabbaths en de beginning of the series of the new testament sabbaths, right at the moment of Christs ressurection, when the stone was rolled away.
I see it this way.

It was the end of the old testament Sabbaths, and the dawning of the new testament Sabbaths. In the 'translation' of your Bible it may read first day of the "week," but that is an unfortunate translation. That's why the word day is italicized in the KJV. It means the actual word day is not in God's Word. And the actual word there translated week is Sabbaths or [sabbaton]. You should note carefully that in that verse of Matthew 28:1, the two words (one translated 'week' and the other 'Sabbath'), are the exact same identical words. It is the plural of sabbath, [sabbaton]. i.e., in the first or beginning of Sabbaths. It may not have seemed correct to the translators to say, "in the end of the Sabbaths (plural), as it began to dawn towards the first of the Sabbaths (plural)," and they decided to translate it another way. But that is exactly what the original text says. And I might add, exactly what it means! When we understand that it was speaking of an end to the Old Testament era of Sabbaths, and the beginning (dawn) of a New Testament era of Sabbaths, it makes perfect sense. We can readily understand this mistranslation, though not condone it. Translating one instance of sabbaton "week," and the other identical sabbaton as "Sabbath" (singular) in the same context and tense, is incorrect. By the way, all scholars confirm that in the original Greek, both words are the identical plural word for "Sabbaths.

Joannah
Berichten: 2544
Lid geworden op: 14 Okt 2009, 16:01

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Joannah » 05 Jan 2010, 00:27

Alexander CD schreef:
Joannah schreef:In Galatians , they will answer you, the subject was circumcision, not the sabbath.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
You see, Galatians is talking about righteousness by the law, that includes the sabbath keeping.
and the law was the shadow of the Good Thing to come.
Hebrews 10:1-2
"for the LAW having a Shadow of good things to come, and not the
Very Image
of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
If you mis that the law is fullfilled by Christ, you probably will never understand the Gospel.
Christ is the very centre of th whole bible, not the law, not Israël.

Christ had to fullfill the law for us, the complete law, not a part!
So Jesus Christ had to fullfill the fourth commandment for us, so that we had perfectly kept the sabbath, how can we appear before God not having the perfection of Christ?
In his commentary John Calvin begins matthew 28 this way.


.
Now in the evening of the Sabbaths, 298 which began to dawn towards the first of the Sabbaths,


The end of the series of old testaments sabbaths en de beginning of the series of the new testament sabbaths, right at the moment of Christs ressurection, when the stone was rolled away.
I see it this way.

It was the end of the old testament Sabbaths, and the dawning of the new testament Sabbaths. In the 'translation' of your Bible it may read first day of the "week," but that is an unfortunate translation. That's why the word day is italicized in the KJV. It means the actual word day is not in God's Word. And the actual word there translated week is Sabbaths or [sabbaton]. You should note carefully that in that verse of Matthew 28:1, the two words (one translated 'week' and the other 'Sabbath'), are the exact same identical words. It is the plural of sabbath, [sabbaton]. i.e., in the first or beginning of Sabbaths. It may not have seemed correct to the translators to say, "in the end of the Sabbaths (plural), as it began to dawn towards the first of the Sabbaths (plural)," and they decided to translate it another way. But that is exactly what the original text says. And I might add, exactly what it means! When we understand that it was speaking of an end to the Old Testament era of Sabbaths, and the beginning (dawn) of a New Testament era of Sabbaths, it makes perfect sense. We can readily understand this mistranslation, though not condone it. Translating one instance of sabbaton "week," and the other identical sabbaton as "Sabbath" (singular) in the same context and tense, is incorrect. By the way, all scholars confirm that in the original Greek, both words are the identical plural word for "Sabbaths.

But than how can Easter and Pentecost be 50 days apart, if both of them are on a sunday?
Don't forget that Pentacost is the fulfilllment of lev 23:16.
Why do we spend money we don’t have on things we don’t need to create impressions that don’t last on people we don’t care about ?

Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 Sep 2008, 18:44

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Alexander CD » 05 Jan 2010, 19:49

Pentecost = "fiftieth day"
Bullinger, I believe wrote it this way, God established the foundation of the creation on the first day (sunday), Christ restored the world on the sunday, the Holy Spirit gave the first fruits on sunday.
So there is a connection between the Trinity and Sunday!

Zonderling
Berichten: 4330
Lid geworden op: 19 Nov 2005, 13:31

Re: Call the Sabbath a Delight!

Berichtdoor Zonderling » 05 Jan 2010, 20:12

Joannah schreef:In the 'translation' of your Bible it may read first day of the "week," but that is an unfortunate translation. That's why the word day is italicized in the KJV. It means the actual word day is not in God's Word. And the actual word there translated week is Sabbaths or [sabbaton]. You should note carefully that in that verse of Matthew 28:1, the two words (one translated 'week' and the other 'Sabbath'), are the exact same identical words. It is the plural of sabbath, [sabbaton]. i.e., in the first or beginning of Sabbaths. It may not have seemed correct to the translators to say, "in the end of the Sabbaths (plural), as it began to dawn towards the first of the Sabbaths (plural)," and they decided to translate it another way. But that is exactly what the original text says. And I might add, exactly what it means! When we understand that it was speaking of an end to the Old Testament era of Sabbaths, and the beginning (dawn) of a New Testament era of Sabbaths, it makes perfect sense. We can readily understand this mistranslation, though not condone it. Translating one instance of sabbaton "week," and the other identical sabbaton as "Sabbath" (singular) in the same context and tense, is incorrect. By the way, all scholars confirm that in the original Greek, both words are the identical plural word for "Sabbaths.

This is not true and conform the Greek. All scholars confirm that the meaning is the first DAY of the week. See your Greek Biblical dictionary (it doesn't really matter which).
Literally it means: the first [day] from the sabbats, and that is clear the Sunday.
The plural has no specific meaning as all scholars confirm.
The same is the case with 'the first day of the months' (plural) as several times in the Old Testament occur.
Be aware that the word 'sabbat' in Hebrew and Greek have two meanings: 1. sabbat. 2. week.

But than how can Easter and Pentecost be 50 days apart, if both of them are on a sunday?
Don't forget that Pentacost is the fulfilllment of lev 23:16.

Indeed is this the fullfillment. There is however no problem because the 50th day always is the same day of the week as the first day to count.

The first day of 50 = 16 Nisan = 2nd day of the Jewish Passover (the day after the sabbat following Lev. 23.16)
The 50 day of 50 = 6 Sivan = Pentecost
If 16 Nisan is Sunday, also 6 Sivan is Sunday. This is still kept by the Jews today, see next quote.

(N.B. Jesus Christ died on 14 Nisan, the day of the Passover Lamb, the 15 day was both weekly sabbat as the passover sabbat.)

Wikipedia schreef:The date of Shavuot is directly linked to that of Passover. The Torah mandates the seven-week Counting of the Omer, beginning on the second day of Passover and immediately followed by Shavuot. This counting of days and weeks is understood to express anticipation and desire for the Giving of the Torah. On Passover, the Jewish people were freed from their enslavement to Pharaoh; on Shavuot they were given the Torah and became a nation committed to serving God.

Shavuot = our Pentecost = 50th day
Second day of Passover = 16 Nisan = the day of the resurrection


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